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Author Topic: Where is 40k gonna wind up?  (Read 855 times)

thebrowndandy

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Where is 40k gonna wind up?
« on: December 14, 2013, 11:44:26 AM »

Games Workshop in their own arrogance has been pushing forward their agenda without regards to their very outspoken community. Competitive 40k, in their eyes, is dead. The game needs to be about model collecting and friendly games. And while that it is all well and good, it takes a lot of motivation away from one of their most loyal bases. Their drive to push competitive 40k out of the mainstream through controversial supplements, and assumed poorly play-tested rules has backed Tournament Organizers into a corner.
TO's are being forced to decide what they are going to do to keep the game competitive. Some large groups have started to re-write their rule books while others are just dis-allowing supplements they deem too big of a game-changer, while others are coming up with new rules to correct what they feel are a flawed rules system.
How valid would these new rules be? They will be as valid as the community is willing to accept them. And not every player will be happy and not every TO will adopt the same rule set. This reminds me of the days of regional sports. The AFC and the NFC had slightly different rules, hell look at the American and National Leagues in baseball. They still have dramatically different rules for the same game. Or even in pool, I still remember there are slightly different rules for 8 Ball depending on which side of the Platte River you are on.
I think this will be the way things have been going, they are just about to get dramatically different. Even before this upheaval, The statement "FRAG rules were in effect" meant that the players would know what to expect or had a reference for how the event would run. Feast of Blades, Adepticon, they all had their own variances. Now... those variances won't just be from other organizations, they will be from Games Workshop itself.
I'm not saying any of this is bad, I'm just saying there can be a slippery slope. And even then things could get good. Depending on your point of view. How far will/could this go?
Example: Current Unit is considered overpowered and abusive. So the answer limit the unit or ban the unit. Next problem, let's say, Space Wolves have no anti-air... Could the group then allow the use of the new Space Marine anti-air tanks? It would solve the problem, it would be fair and if the group allowed it... That could become a club rule. Perhaps someone even suggests allowing them to have a Storm Raven... now the wolves have an air unit.
It sounds silly to think of people mixing and matching codices, but if the group has already accepted the concept of changing rules to bring balance. This could bring balance and all agree, why not?
Let's go further down this rabbit hole with the same issue, no air support of wolves. Someone pitches an idea... Okay it's me (keep in mind I'm not pitching this it is just speculation about what might be in line for wolves, but I feel like throwing it in here).
Elrik Skyrider - A Rune Priest on the back of a giant eagle. The Eagle is a Flying Monsterous Creature that is T6, W4 with Vector Strike. The Rune Priest can use Psychic Powers like normal, except for Jaws of the World Wolf (as he is airborne). This would be a Special Character and cost around 200 points.
Let's say your group likes this idea... they could make a dataslate and add it to the Codex... Now they could have always have done these sorts of things, but the backlash from purists would have been incredible. Now... not so much. What about a group created Marine Chapter Codex with it's own army wide rules? What about a new race completely... could we agree on rules for squats enough to allow it in tournament play?

Some of you are outraged by these ideas... some of you are intrigued. I'm not even sure where I stand on this subject? Where do you stand?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 11:50:57 AM by thebrowndandy »
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Unholyllama

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Re: Where is 40k gonna wind up?
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2013, 12:54:46 PM »

I think it's too early to tell.  Roll back the clock a few months and tournaments pretty much only allowed he ADL and Bastion; in essence limiting what people could take and not. Granted this is a small fraction of players since,  until recently, the fortification and building rules were terrible - furthermore these were due to the terrain already on the field but it's still a limitation.

In the past few weeks we have had a huge amount of rules dumped on us - faster than they have at any other point in time that I can recall. I. Addition, fundamentals to the game have been shattered due thanks to the inquisition and formation detachments. 

Digital exclusives have also shifted perceptions since you can't just borrow your friends codex to learn such. While that was questionable, the perception of sharing a digital edition is considered taboo.  There is too much information coming out too quickly for people to stay on top of it.

There isn't a silver bullet yet but we need to keep watching and play testing.  To be honest, I don't understand the hate I keep reading about Stronghold assult. I love the book and the rules within. I understand not allowing certain fortifications or networks in general for the same reasons as not allowing the skyshield or fortress of redemption however everything else can provide some nice changes to the game. 

Escalation is something that needs to be play tested more. Some people say it's broken but at the same time, others are saying it's not too bad provided you are expecting such - meaning it's broken in the current meta and may not be as broken as people are saying in a battle where it's expected.

Digital supplements like Black Legion, Sentinels of Terra, and Clan Raukaan are awesome in that they provide something different to play.  It DOES turn into an accounting nightmare for anyone who uses battlescribe and army builder due to new relics and FOC stuff but overall they can provide some awesome changes that may provide a tactical advantage over the vanilla version.  The same goes with the unique character data slates for models like Be'lakor and Cypher.

Formations are bittersweet. Here I think GW truly didn't think through the rules and play testing properly.  If Formations 1) could not be used in the army they are a part of and 2) only 1 copy of each formation in an army I think it would be better.  The Storm Wing formation can be used to give SoB or Space Wolves the air support you were talking about.  Do I wish they would have more formations than just the latest armies? Yes.  Right now though, I'm looking forward to the Tyranid book to see what it looks like given all of the changes.  Will it have a Lord of War? Will it have formations listed? If so, then it truly enforces what is part of the game and what is a supplement.

Again - there is too much doomsaying going on even though in 3 months nines could look a lot more sane.
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derek

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Re: Where is 40k gonna wind up?
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2013, 04:24:20 PM »

I agree with the Llama, it seems a lot of 40k organizers who don't have an event in the immediate future, i.e. the Las Vegas Open is less than 2 months out so they actually DO need to be worried about this stuff, are taking a wait and see what happens in the next month or so approach.  I know that NOVA is.  Other than Feast which is months and months (and months) away at this point (and I could probably take a run at WHY they made the announcement so early, but I'll be nice), no one with events in the summer or later are out there saying "We're going to do this."

Whatever is decided restrictions are nothing new, back in 3rd edition even GW didn't let you play with special characters in RTTs, it's why there was so much beating into people's head in 4th and 5th that they were no longer special, and in the case of Space Marines they became what "paint scheme" was as a chapter identifier.  For a more current example, Fortifications, I didn't hear anyone complaining about the lack of Skyshield, or Fortress of Redemption (other than someone that was banned from our group, and wasn't likely to actually spend money on one anwyay), and while I haven't gone through the Stronghold Assault book yet, I'm inclined to think that at least some of it will make it's way into regular 40k tournament games.  Same with some of the dataslates, and for digital books.

I'd rather not delve into the allowance for homebrew, as I think it is something that can be abused more easily than GW's already easily abuseable non playtested rules.  It may require some waiting but at this rate every book should be updated by the Massacre, and hopefully some of the holes like Skyfire and Interceptor will be filled.  In the meantime there are Ally slots that can help as I don't see Allies as going away any time soon.

On the Formations, I think they're a Christmas/othergiftgivingholiday afterthought that came about to sell more bundles.  If there were non bundle Formations I would think different.  Guess we'll see what Nids bring.
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Mizzouri

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Re: Where is 40k gonna wind up?
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2013, 06:28:10 PM »

Cooler heads and a lot of play testing are needed to see how this shakes out. The new fortifcations are nice and even if they all don't have a place in tournaments they look awefully fun for friendly games. As far as 'D' weapon toting SHs, they look unbalanced right out of the box. Does this mean a shift to list building, banning them, or pushing points level higher knowing everyone will either have one or have enough tools in the box to deal with one? Time will tell and I say that all paths should be looked at before decisions are made.
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FrostReaver

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Re: Where is 40k gonna wind up?
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2013, 12:22:06 AM »

In all honesty, the whole thing just give me a massive headache. I liked the way things had been going with the faster codex releases but this is just too much, too fast. Not only do these things all need to be playtested with the core ruleset, but they also need to be playtested when used in conjunction with each other. It promises to be a massive undertaking.
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thebrowndandy

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Re: Where is 40k gonna wind up?
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2013, 11:00:11 AM »

So basically you wanna shout your safe word now?
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derek

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Re: Where is 40k gonna wind up?
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2013, 01:26:24 PM »

BANANAS!
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Unholyllama

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Re: Where is 40k gonna wind up?
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2013, 02:53:50 PM »



In all seriousness - I agree that things need to be playtested but thankfully I don't think things are too crazy.  There's a lot going on and coming out but from what I see online most of this stuff hasn't affected people.  There's a lot of rhetoric going around asking "OMGWTFBBQ!!!1!11!" but in general it seems like the general players don't really care too much about such. 

Should someone get kicked in the nuts for bringing a list that runs 4 of the Riptide formations and a tiny Inquisition primary? Of course but at the moment, that's a theoretical edge case that may be smoothed out in the next month or three after IG (or whatever) comes out in March.  My main interest right now is January and knowing what's in the new Nid dex.  Is the harridan in there?  Are there formation rules?  Is the Doom truly gone? If so, then we will know for certain if these are random, one-offs or something so official that they are entering the codex and we can go from there.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 03:01:09 PM by Unholyllama »
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Shas_Sam

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Re: Where is 40k gonna wind up?
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2013, 04:35:41 PM »

I think GW is trying to capture some of the more epic elements from the Black Library. Images we love to think of like the Baneblade Father Time (from Gaunts Ghosts) rolling in and crushing the enemy or the C'tan mentioned early in the Ultramarines series or Pride of Hera crushed by a brood of Carnifex's. Creating the battles where it wasn't just a skirmish of armies but those stress moments that inspire stories to be told around cigarette circles for years to come.

Getting there.... Well that's another story. Change is often painful and most noticeable during the change. We may be seeing a stage set for 7th ed (Circa 2016) or a evolution of less models for more points and cash.
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